26 Aug-M-JP-1-1-Urmey (Int. Jacobson)
Court V Case VII
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of
the United States of America, against Welhelm List et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg [sic],
Germany on 26 August 1947, 0930, Justice Justice Edward F. Carter presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V.
Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Marshal, you will ascertain as to whether or not all defendants are present in the courtroom.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honors, all defendants are present in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Judge Edward F. Carter will preside at this day's session.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may proceed.
MR. DENNEY: May it please your Honors, there are a few matters we would like to clear up about exhibits, identifying documents,
etc. that we have let go a little too long, so perhaps this would be a good time to do it and in addition counsel for the
defendant Rendulic has had something come up in the case which is pending before Military Tribunal II and will be over there for
20 minutes or so and then will return.
I think that the matters that are here will take up the Court's time until he gets back if that is agreeable with the Tribunal.
This which has just been handed to your Honors, and defense counsel, Secretary General, the interpreters and the reporters is to
be marked 480-A. It is to be inserted at the end of Document Book XX and given pages numbered 146 and 147. I am sorry, your Honor,
I don't have the German page number but Dr. Laternser advises me that it will be satisfactory if we indicate that it should bo inserted at
the end of German Document Book XX.
26 Aug-M-JP-1-2-Urmey (Int. Jacobsen)
Court V Case VII
This document which has just been given to your Honors and defense counsel, the Secretary General,
the interpreters and the translators should be marked 498-A. It should be given pages numbered 140 and 141,
and is to be inserted at the close of Document Book XXI. I do not have the Gernan pages but it should be inserted at the close of German Document Book XXI.
Both 480-A and 498-A are offered for identification Both 480-A and 498-A aronly, as has been the practice with reference to the prior similar exhibits,
one of which has heen offered for each book.
May it please your Honors, the question of the signatures of the defendants which appear on the various
curriculum vita affidavits which have been submitted to the Tribunal has been discussed with all of their defense
counsel and they are agreeable to a concession that the various documents--that is, I shall list them momentarily--have been signed by their clients.
26 Aug-M-MJ-2-1-Urmey (Jacobsohn)
Court 5, Case 7
Counsel for the defendant List with reference to Exhibit 2 which is in Book I, the signature appearing at page 3;
counsel for the defendant Foertsch with reference to Exhibit 11 which is in Book I, he signature appearing at page 42;
counsel for the defendant Kuntze, Exhibit 132 which is in Book VI, the signature appearing at page 4; counsel for the defendant Geitner,
Exhibit 2l6 which is in Book IX, the signature appearing at page 3; counsel for the defendant Weichs, Exhibit 311 which is in Book XIII, the
singature appearing at page 5; counsel for the defendant Rondulic, Exhibit 313 which is in Book XIII, the signature appearing at page 13;
counsel for the defendant Dehner, Exhibit 315 which is in Book XIII, the signature appearing at page 21; counsel for the defendant Leyser,
Exhibit 324 whi [sic] which is in Book XIV, the signature appearing at page 56; counsel for the defendant Speidel, Exhibit 409 which is in Book SVII,
the signature appearing at page 3; counsel for the defendant Felmy, Exhibit 442, which is in Book XIX, the signature appearing at page 3; counsel for the defendant Lanz, Exhibit 443, which is in Book XIX, the signature appearing at page 8; and may it please Your ['Y' typed over 'y'] Honors, the only
concession that is made is that those are the signatures of the individuals in question.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I assume that defense counsel have heard the recitation of the stipulation made between [prosecution] and defense counsel. Are there any objections to it as it has been stated in the record?
If not, the Court will accept it as a stipulation between prosecution and [counsel] for the defense.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honors, I have given my consent as regards my clients that these are their signatures. The reasons were the following:
in order to obviate any neccesity for getting witnesses from abroad. But I want to expressly move, first of all, that Exhibit NOKW-860,
Exhibit 2 is cancelled. This Exhibit is an af-
26 Aug-M-MJ-2-2-Urmey (Jacobshon)
Court 5, Case 7
fidavit of the defendant Field Marshal List. My reasons for asking for cancellation are as follows, quite briefly.
The prosecution cannot ask for a defendant to appear as a witness. If it submits an affidavit of a defendant, it really calls him as a witness because it uses his statement as evidence. Legally, the prosecution is not in a position to do this. For that reason, I object to the use of this affidavit, Exhibit No. 2 on the part of the prosecution and move for the reason I have given now that this affidavit, be cancelled.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I am inclined to think that counsel is in error as to the rule that he cites. If a defendant elects to sign a statement, I think his statement is [admissible] and the rule does not apply that he is called to testify against himself. If there are any admissions against interests, they are proper to be offered against him. I think, therefore, the motion will have to be overruled.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, we would like to withdraw the certificate which is 525-A for identification, which was offered yesterday and the certificate will be resubmitted with the Exhibit Norway-9.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may of course withdraw any Exhibit for identification if you care to.
MR. DENNEY: Thank you, Your Honor, and then we would request that this certificate which has nothing to do with the Norway case be marked 525, the one which has just been handed to your Honors. All of defense counsel are familiar with this, and I think that all we will have to do isjust [sic] read the first two pages and we can omit the executive orders of the President of 2 May 1945, l6 January 1946, the memorandum of 29 March 1946, of Mr. Jutice [sic] Jackson--excuse me, Robert H. Jackson, Chief of Counsel, General Order No. 301 of 24
26 Aug-M-MJ-2-3-Urmey (Jacobsohn)
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October 1946 signed by Major Genera l [sic] Huebner, Chief of Staff, and the copy of the appointment of General Taylor dated 24 October 1946 under the authority of General McNarney, the then Commanding General in the American Zone in Europe. If that is agreeable with Your Honors, then, I will jut [t typed over s] read the first page, the first two pages rather, because there is a recital in the first document with reference to those that follow.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may, of course, read any part of it you see fit to read.
26 August 1947_M_MSD_2_4_ Urmey _ Jacobsohn
Court V, Case 7
This certificate is made for the purpose of showing the authority of certain of the personnel of the Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes to administer oaths and properly to attest those affidavits which will be offered in evidence before the Military Tribunal for Case 7 in the United States v. Wilhelm List et al.
Pursuant to Executive Order 9547, 2 May 1945, attached herto as "Tab A", Executive Order 9679, 16 January 1946, attached hereto as "Tab B", Memorandum No. 15 of Office of Chief of Counsel, 29 March 1946, attached hereto as "Tab C", General Order No. 301 of the Military Governor, 24 October 1946, attached hereto as "Tab D", and letter, USFET, 24 October 1946,: Appointment of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes, attached hereto as "Tab E", I am authorized, and have been since 29 March 1946, to prepare and prosecute chargds [sic] of atrocities and war crimes against leaders of the European Axis powers and their accessories.
In discharge of the responsibilities conferred on me by the above mentioned orders and instructions, I have authorized and detailed members of my staff who are engaged with me in the preparation and prosecution of cases, including attorneys, interrogators, and other investigators and agents of the Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes, to conduct interrogations and investigations and in the course of such interrogations and investigations to administer oaths.
Among those whom I have authorized to conduct interrogations and investigations and to administer oaths, with the effective date of their authorization, are the following personnel of Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes:
FRED KAUFMANN, U.S. Civilian, AGO Identification No. A_441649 Chief, Interrogation Branch, Evidence Division, Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes, authorised 9 July 1946.
26 August 1947_M_MSD_2_5_Urmey _ Jacobsohn
Court V, case 7
OTTO KREILSHEIM, U.S. Civilian, AGO Identification No. A_445900, Interrogator, Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes, authorized 4 October 1946.
WALTER H. RAPP, U.S. Civilian, AGO Identification No. D_416367, Director, Evidence Division, Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes, authorized 26 May 1946.
HENRY SACHS, U.S. Civilian, AGO Identification No. A_441698 Research Analyst, Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes, authorized 15 July 1946.
(signed) TELFORD TAYLOR,
22 August 1947 Brigadier General, US, Army
Chief of Counsel for War Crimes
Court V Case VII
26 Aug 47 3-l-M-GW-Maloy(Jacobsohn & Scharf)
MR. DENNEY: At the time the Greek film was shown the certificate from Dr. Dimitsas was not available, and I now have the certificate and hand it to the Secretary General.
Dr. Fritsch has now returned from the Pohl case, and that concludes the matters which we had with reference to miscellaneous matters, and Mr. Rapp will now continue with the presentation of the evidence involving the Norwegian case.
MR. RAPP: If Your Honors will recall, yesterday, in connection, with Document Book 23 there was some question as to the Jurat of some of the documents which were marked for identification only. We are now submitting the necessary certifications, and as I shall come to each document I shall at that time make some comments which may be necessary. Norway No. 1, -- Norway No. I which has been marked Exhibit 511-A for identification, we will not present at this time. We just leave it as 511-A, and we will not further present it at this time.
Norway II, which has been marked for identification as Exhibit 512-A, and Norway V, which has been marked 516-A, and Norway XI, which has been marked as Exhibit 520-A, and Norway XII, which has been marked Exhibit 521-A,--I have given defense counsel a certificate pertaining to those documents. I promised this particular certificate to defense counsel last night. I didn't get it off of the mimeograph machine until about 12:30 this morning. I couldn't find defense counsel at that time any more, so I gave it to him at the first opportunitiy this morning, and in view of the fact that we could not get together last night defense counsel informed me this morning that he would have to have until noon today before
Court V Case VII
26 Aug 47 3-2-M-GW-Malloy (Jacobsohn &
I can put in these
documents which are covered in connection with this certificate. So I am now
passing out to the other defense counsels merely in order to keep their document book up, although
they have no connection with the Norwegian case, copies of this certificate, and after
the noon recess I shall come back to this certificate and read the documents
pertaining thereto into the record.
This particular document which I am having reference to now should be
marked Exhibit 515-A, until such time as we present it as a document after the
noon recess, so we mark it
now for identification as Exhibit 515-A. This, Your Honors, is to be marked 515-A for identification.
I shall now pass out copies in English to the Honorable Tribunal,
to the Assistant Secretary General, to the interpreters, the translators, and
copies in German to the defense counsel and also copies to the court reporters.
If your Honors turn now, please, to page 17 of the English document
book, and page 19 of the German document book, as your Honors will notice this
particular document is offered in excerpt only. The original
document appears in Norwegian. We have only translated the excerpt part into the English and
the German language. I have meanwhile informed defense counsel that before the
day is over
I ill [sic] also furnish to him that part which is not being offered in
evidence by the prosecution in the German language, so that he may avail
himself of such translation if he wishes to do so, and defense counsel told me that was
agreeable to him.
Defense counsel calls to my attention that the previous certificate
which I have submitted to your Honors for identification, marked 515-A, does
Court V, Case VII
26 Aug 47 3-3-M-GW-Maloy (Jacobsohn & Scharf)
Norway document 5, which I had just reference to. That of course, is correct and I was merely referring to one part, and this previous certificate, which, of course, has no bearing on that what I have just told the Court. As far as this document Norway 5 is concerned, which has been marked for identification as Exhibit 516-A, I should like now to submit this document to your Honors as Prosecution Exhibit 516, with the understanding that I will furnish defense counsel tonight that part which was not offered by us in evidence; but for his
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honors, I object to the submission of Norway 5 as an exhibit, for the same reasons which wore discussed yesterday in reference to those documents. This is a report of the town engineer of Hammerfest, which in no way meets the demands made by the rules of procedure regarding evidence. This is likewise not a document which has its origin in the investigations of a Government commission. Rather, it is a personal report of a private individual.
MR. RAPP: Your Honors, I was just about to hand to defense counsel the Jurat of this particular document we are submitting into evidence, and it is perfectly obvious that the
document is all that that defense counsel says it is not, and I am just about ready to hand that to defense counsel. It was marked yesterday for identification as Document 516-A, and we are submitting it now as document. The certificate that was in there yesterday was not withdrawn. It was still marked for identification, and we are putting it back as such today, and I was just about to pass out to defense counsel and the court copies of the jurat. This particular document, Your Honor, of course, bears no particular document number, since it is in the
Court V Case VII
26 Aug 47 3-4-M-GW-Maloy (Jacobsohn & Scharf)
original folder marked at present as Exhibit 516-A.
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, I don't want to protest against not keeping to the time limit of 24 -hours in this case, but I would like to ask mr. Rapp to use the same procedure as regards this document as in the other cases, and to discuss these natters in a final manner this afternoon. I have just only come into the possession of this Jurat, as your Honors have seen.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, I appreciate defense counsel's concession on this particular instance. However, I believe there is a little difference on the other document. We had withdrawn the identification, and we were re-submitting it, and I had promised him to do that last night and I was unable to comply. This particular jurat has never been withdrawn, in other words, the document remains for identification with the Secretary General.
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, at any rate this is a supplement which to document 516-A- submitted yesterday.
This supplement has only been submitted just now, and I believe it is only fair if in this case, the same procedure is adopted as with the other document.
JUDGE CARTER: The questions involved in this certificate seem to be similar to those in the other certificates. We think the position of counsel well taken, and it should at least go over until the afternoon recess.
26 Aug 47-M-MB-4-1-Maloy (Ints. Jacobsohn & Scharf)
Court No. V, Case No 7.
MR. RAPP: Very well, Your Honor. The next document I am having reference to is Norway IX, which Your Honors will find on page 33. It is on page 36 of the German defense counsels book. Norway IX was marked as 518-A-518-A and in compliance with the desires of defense counsel I am now merely passing out the jurat and we shall return to it after the noon recess.
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, I would not object if in the case of this document we would already discuss the entire objection to this document. I don't believe that the confirmation of the signature of this document is very essential. This is an indictment originating in Norway. However, indictments in my view cannot be admitted as evidence. For this reason alone I believe this exhibit can not be admitted, and I am therefore taking care to object already at this juncture against its admission.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, we submit that this particular document Norway IX is an official report of the representative of the Norwegian government to the United Nations War Crimes Commission in London, and was prepared during the war, and concluded toward the end of the War. We are submitting it under the rules of Ordnance No. VII, as an official Government report, and the Tribunal in admitting this particular piece of evidence is, of course, at their own discretion if they decide to give it any weight or how much of it they want to allocate to it, but I believe that it is in the nature of an official government report which was submitted to the United Nations War
DR. FIRTSCH: Your Honor, may I point out that this document is super-scribed "Accusations, and thus it outwardly conform with the form of an
JUDGE CARTER: It is the opinion of the Tribunal that it is properly admissible in evidence. The fact it might contain such statements will not prevent it
from being used. However, we are in agreement, no doubt, that the accusations don't have very much probative value before this Tribunal. I think probably if it is established that it is a document
26 Aug 47-M-MB-4-2-Maloy (Ints. Jacobsohn & Scharf)
Court No. V, Case No. 7
of the War Crimes Commission of the Norwegian Government that it will have to be admitted for what it is worth. I think on that issue we will have to overrule the objection.
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, may I reserve stating my point of view until the time after the expiration of the limit for the document submitted today.
MR. RAPP: If the Court pleases, I should like to request the Marshal be requested to summon the witness Trygve Schance, S-c-h-a-n-c-e, Trygve, T-r-y-g-v-e, is his first name: Trygve Schance.
JUDGE CARTER: The Marshal is instructed to summon the witness.
Does the witness speak English?
MR. RAPP: The witness does not speak English, Your Honor.
JUDGE CARTER: The witness will be sworn.
I solemnly swear that the testimony I will give in the case on trial will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE CARTER: You may sit down.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR.RAPP:
Q What is your full name, witness?
A Trygve Schance. That is, T-r-y-g-v-e S-c-h-a-n-c-e.
MR. RAPP: May I inquire from the interpreter how it is intending to conduct this interpretation. In other words, are you going from Norwegian into the German or from Norwegian into the English, or vice-versa.
INTERPRETER SCHARF: I dont care, whichever way you prefer it. I can talk either English or German.
MR. RAPP: All right. I suggest I examine the witness in the German language, and you answer and translate in the German language, and the interpreters then can put it into English, I believe that will be more convenient all the way around.
26 Aug 47-M-MB-4-3-Maloy (Int. Jacobsohn & Scharf)
Court No. V, Case No. 7
Q When were you born, witness?
A 15 April 1907.
Q And where were you born, witness?
A In S-k-j-a-n-e-f-a, N-a-m-v-i-k.
Q Have you any family, witness?
A Yes, a wife and two children.
Q What is your profession, witness?
A I am police director in Polmak.
Q What was your schooling?
A Elementary school, secondary school, and I took a training course in the Civil Air Defense. I took a police training course in general mechanics. That is all.
Q Since when have you been director of Police in Polmak?
A I have been in Polmak since February 1, 1945.
26 August-M-BK-5-1-Perrin (int. Jacobsohn)
Court 7, Case 7
Q. In which part of Norway is the town of Polmak situated?
INTERPRETER SCHARF: Is the witness supposed to use the map?
MR. RAPP: Yes,if he can do so.
A. Polmak: is situated near the finish frontier, that is the interior part of Finnmark.
BY MR. RAPP
Q. Thank you. Witness, what did you do before you became chief of police in Polmak?
A. I was police sergeant-major in Vardoe.
Q. Witness, where is the little town of Vardoe? You needn't point it out on the map.
A. It is on the coast on the eastern part of Finnmark.
Q. And how long were you there? Since when?
A. I had taken up my position in Vardoe on the 15th of June 1935.
Q. And witness, if I have understood you correctly, you left on the first of February 1945 and went to Polmak from there, is that correct?
A. Yes,that is correct.
Q. During the time of the occupation were you in that little town of Vardoe?
A. Yes, at that time I was in Vardoe.
Q. Witness, what was your task as an inhabitant of the town of Vardoe during the time of the occupation? What did you do?
A. I had to deal with criminal matters since I was a police official
Q. Witness can you give us some more details briefly? It is a rather large concept, criminal matters.
A. I had to deal with theft and violations of the law on the part of the civilian population.
Q. Witness, was the town of Vardoe during the time you stayed there destroyed in connection with the war?
A. When the Germans retreated, we calculated that between 80 to
26 August-M-BK-5-2-Perrin (Int. Jacobsohn)
Court V, Case 7
85 percent of the town had been destroyed.
Q When did the Germans withdraw, witness?
A They left Vardoe the first days of November, 1944.
Q Was it the first time that you heard of a retreat or had seen a retreat?
A I was not in Vardoe at the time the retreat was taking place.
Q Where were you, witness?
A I was in Skajanes (spelling) S-k-j-a-n- e-s.
Q Would you like to point out to us now on the map, Vardoe and Skajanes?
A (Indicating) It is on the west side of the Tana Fjord.
Q How did you learn of the retreat in Skajanes?
A On the 30th of October 1944, I talked over the telephone with my mother-in-law. She is living in Finnkonckeila(spelling) F-i-n-n-k-o-n-o-k-e-i-l-a. She told me that on the same
day a German detachment had been in the town of Finnkonckeila, and I must add here that no other German troops were in Finnkonckeila. These Germans told the population that the little town was to be burned and that the population was to be evacuated in boats. The population had decided in the meantime not to go away. They did not want to evacuate the town, and they began at once to leave for the mountains. The Childrens Home had been transferred to Finnkonckeila from Vardoe at some previous date, there were 23 children from the ages of 1 to 15 years, and we had 4 women looking after these children. My mother-in-law wanted to know whether I could possibly help to take these children from Finnkonckeilato a safer place, and I answered that I would do that. Eleven young men apart from myself accompanied me. They also were prepared to go to Finnkonckeilaacross the
mountains in order to do that. A 6 o'clock in the morning on the 31st of October, we began our trip and went to Finnkonckeila. We arrived in Finnkonckeilaat about 2 or 3 o'clock in the afternoon. The population had already tone [sic] into the mountains overlooking the village. A German detachment
20 August-M-BK-5-3-Perrin (Int. Jacobsohn)
Court V, Case 7
had arrived in Finnkonckeila in a motorboat and stayed near the village. I saw that boxes of dynamite were taken from the boats to shore and also cans with gasoline.
I went down into the little town and one of my comrades accompanied me. It was my intention to obtain clothing which I had previously sent to the house of my mother-in-law, and so it happened that I struck up a conversation with the leader of this German detachment. It was a German lieutenant. I asked him whether it was true that this town was to be
burned. He answered, "Yes, this place is to be blown up. This is not only to happen here, but in the whole of Finnmark." And he added that the population was to be sent to the south in small boats. I asked him then what would happen if the population should decide to go to the mountains. He asnwered [sic] that afterwards a detachment would arrive which has the task of fetching the population.
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He said those who should refuse to come along would be arrested and would be taken into German captivity, and they would also risk being shot. We were told that we had to leave the place at once because the blowing up and burning down was to begin at once. We went back to the camp then which the people had in the mountains. The other ten who had been with me had begin to make preparations in order to take the children away with them over the rocks. At about half-past three in the afternoon, they began their detonations and the burning down of the houses. There were three fish processing factories, producing all kinds of fish products, these three installations were blown up as the first with dynamite.
And the Germans went from house to house with their cans of gasoline. They went into the houses, remained there for a moment, then came out again, smashed the windows with the buts [sic] of their rifles, and a moment or two later the houses began to go up in flames. The procedure of the Germans was quite systematical, that is to say, they went from house to house.
I was sitting up above the village and looked at what was going on until about 5 o'clock in the afternoon. At five o'clock, the whole place which is situated in a gorge was a sea of flames. Two houses were some distance from the village, and those two houses were not in flames when I left. It is at that time we began our retreat to Skajanes with the children. We had a very strenuous trip with these children. The smallest had to be carried on our backs. The way back took us 18 hours. We arrived at Skajanes at 12 o'clock noon, on the 1st of November 1944.
The children were very badly dressed, only thin shoes, and they were badly equipped for such a trip. We lodged the children in the school building of Skjane. In the evening of the same day, that is on the first of November 1944 at about 11 or 11:30 at night, a German landing craft arrived in Skajanes. a number of German soldiers and marines disembarked from this boat. The first thing they did was that
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they put fire to the warehouse in Skajanes. Soldiers were posted around the village, and others went and told the population that they would have to be on the landing craft within, at the latest, one hour. The leader of this detachment was a German lieutenant. This officer went to the school building in which the children were, and he ordered that all these children should instantly be brought to the boat. The superentendant of these childrens home came running to my house which is situated about three or four hundred [d
typed over illegible] yards from the school, and they asked me to try to entervene [sic] with the Germans so that the children would not have to be taken to the
boat. I went along with them and talked to the lieutenant. He said that his order was that he was to collect these people and my objections and my pleas not to
do this were of no interest to him. He said exactly the same regarding what was to happen as the lieutenant with whom I had talked in Finnkonkeila, and he
also said that those who possibly remained behind would either be made prisoners of war of the Germans or could possibly [y typed over illegible] also
be shot on the spot. This conversation took place on the stairs outside of the school building in which the children were lodged.
It was night and the children were in their beds, and the officer ordered that his soldiers should at once start taking the children to the ship. I saw that the children were, taken out of their beds without any opportunity of putting on clothes, and they were taken to the ship as they were without any further ado. The bigger children were usually successful in putting on some of their clothes, and they were also taken to the ship. I then saw that I could do nothing here. I left this house and went back to the house in which I lived, and where my wife, my mother, and my children were living. I was stopped by the German lieutenant when I was going back, and he told me to stop, turn back, and
go to the boat. I pointed out to the lieutenant that I was in my pajamas and that I only had an overcoat, apart from that, and slippers. And I also told him
that he should give me an opportunity to
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prepare myself better for such a trip, and that also I had a family after which I had to look. He ordered a soldier to take me to the boat at once. I pointed out to him that he himself had posted sentries around the village which were to see to it that the whole population was to board the ships, and I thought if [i typed over I] there were
such sentries around the village there would not be any harm if I could go back to the house and prepare myself for the trip and for my family. Thereupon he
gave me permission to do that. I went back to my house, and the soldier who had been there said the same, that an hour at the latest we should be on the
boat, and that we should prepare ourselves for that.
26 Aug 47-M-SG-7-1-Primeau [m
typed over i]-(lnt. Jacobsohn)
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During the time that remained to us we succeeded in leaving our house and getting into the mountains. Later it appeared that the rest of the population had done the
same -- that is, had taken to the mountains.
I want to kraw [sic] your attention to the fact that the country around Sljanes [sic] is very rough. It is very easy to hide one's self there and to get anway [sic] from the place
This ship of which I have spoken previously left in about one hour nad [sic] only the children were on that boat and the people who had looked af[sic]ter the children.
MR. RAPP: Witness, the Judge wants to say something,
PRESIDENT JUDGE [D typed over
illegible] CATER [sic]: We will take our morning recess at this time.
(A recess was taken)
26 Aug 47-M-MB-8-1-Primeau
Court No. V, Case No. 7.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will be seated.
The Tribunal is again in session.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may proceed.
BY MR. RAPP:
Q Would you please carry on with your report?
A As I have already said, we went into the mountain in order to escape from the German forced evacuation. I would like to point out here that
the places which I mentioned before such as Skajanes, Finnkonckeila, et cetera, were on the Nurfen Peninsula and there are no road communications there.
The next day it was the 2nd of November an armed fishing boat came to Skajanes, a kind of auxiliary war ship. Germans landed from the ship and then they started to burn down houses and the village. The civilian population was then in the mountains in the neighboring district. Since we saw that the Germans were starting to burn down the village, we tried to come as near to the village as possible in order to see what was going on.
The same thing happened which happened in Finnkonckeila. Explosive stuff such as gasoline was taken into the houses. The windows were broken and soon after this
the houses burst into flames.
Those domestic animals which the population were not able to bring into safety were taken by the Germans. Some of them were slaughtered on the spot. Others were taken on to the ship.
As I have already said, we collected in the mountains and after all we had there a camp in which we were collected. None of us had more with us except that which we carried on our bodies and we were gathered there together. We were altogether 130 people. The eldest was 86 years old. The youngest was a girl 4 days old. This little girl and the
mother of this child we had taken on a stretcher into the mountains shortly before the burning started.
For three days we stayed out in the open and in the meantime we tried to erect some kind of houses. We build a kind of house which we
26 Aug 47-M-MB-8-2-Primeau (Int. Evand)
Court No. V
Case No. 7.
call up there a "Gamme". That is a house made from turf. After these three days we succeeded in building sufficient houses and to develop these houses sufficiently in order to get into them. We had very little to eat and we had very few clothes.
26 Aug 47-M-MB-9-1-Stewart (int. Evand & Scharf)
Court No. V, Case No. 7
What we had to eat was mostly cattle which we slaughtered, cattle which we had saved from the Germans. We were there in the mountains for 17 days. In the first
days, while we were there, we saw continu[-]ously, German ships coming from and going into the Fjord, and German aircraft which flew over our heads. We had
no communications with other villages, neither telephones nor roads.
We knew that Finnkonckeilahad been burned to the ground. We had seen the sea of flames in Berlevaag. We sent small patrols of two or three men
to Gamvik, and Mehamn to see what was happening there, and we discovered there that these villages were completely destroyed, that they had been blown up and
burned down, and that the population had been compulsorily evacuated to the south.
From the 17th of November, a German motor boat came from Batsfjord and we discovered there how conditions further east in Finnmark were. I went
with the motorboat when it went back east, and came in this way as far as Vardoe.
Q Witness, one moment please. Was it a German or Norwegian motorboat?
A It was a Norwegian motor boat.
Q Thank you very much.
A. In that way I got to Vardoe, where I worked. After all, I had a job. I got there on the 19th of November. My job was to collect in[-]formation about the
population which had remained behind, so that we could help them. It turned out that we had a few Norwegian motorboats left, boats which we had succeeded in
saving. So far as it was possible, to use these motorboats to transport the people who were still in the open, we did this, but it must be remembered that
the German control had to be avoided.
In addition my job was to interrogate people who came from West Finnmark. It turned out that there also a few motor boats had been saved. As soon as it
became a little quieter there, - as soon as there werent so many German ships there, these boats, -- those motorboats, - started out to eastern Finnmark. There were also
boats coming from Dofoten.
26 Aug 47-M-MB-9-2-Stewart (Int. Court No. V, Case No 7
They made a large bend in the north and then they landed in eastern Finnmark.
After we had listened to the people who arrived in this way, we learned much more about what had happened in the various villages. Slowly but
surely, we discovered what had happened and the whereabouts of people, and where help was most needed. The Norwegian soldiers had arrived at this time in Finnmark,
and Lt. Colonel Johnson, was appointed leader of the expedition which was to help the civilian population.
We listened to what these people who came from the other parts of Finnmark had to say, and in this way we also discovered how the Germans had acted in the
Slowly but surely we succeeded in bringing the people who had been living under the most difficult conditions to Eastern Finnmark. In the meantime
we received news that the Germans had also been carrying out destructions in Western Finnmark.
Q Witness, the town of Vardoe which you spoke about last, it is on the Varanger Peninsula; is that correct?
A It is on the Varanger Peninsula.Vardoe, - the town of Vardoe, -is on a small island which is divided from Varanger by a sound. There is no
land, communication from the town to the island, but the main road goes on up to this waterway, this sound.
Q Would you please show us the town of Vardoe on the map? Witness, where is the main road 50 which goes from the East to the West?
(Witness indicating these things on map? [sic]
A It starts here and then goes along this red line where I am pointing.
Q How far, approximately is this town, Vardoe, from the main road, - main road 50 which goes from the East to the West?
A The waterway which divides Vardoe from the main road is about 1500 meters wide.
Q I do not think the witness understood my question.
A From the main road 50 there is a branch, a continuation, so to
26 Aug 47-M-MB-9-3-Stewart (Int. Evand & Scharf)
Court No. V, Case No 7
speak, from Vardoe to Vardsae,
Q Witness, the question I think was very simple. How far is the distance from the main road 50 to Vardoe, in kilometers?
A 75 kilometers from Vardoe to Vardsae.
Q That still is not the answer to my question. You have now told me how far from Vardoe to Vardsae, I asked you how far it is from Vardoe to the main road, 50.
A About 125 kilometers.
Q Thats correct. Now, witness, this town which you mentioned before, - my Norwegian is not very good, - but its Finnkenckeila, -how far is this place from the main road 50, in kilometers?
A 130 or 140 kilometers.
26 Aug-M-JP-10-1-Stewart (Int. Evand Scharf)
Court V Case VII
Q. Witness, in your capacity as a policeman up there, have you often traveled through this whole territory?
Q. During the occupation?
A. Not as much during the time of the occupation as afterwards.
Q. How soon after the occupation?
A. I went from Skajanes to Vardoe on the 17th and 18th of November. On the 18th of December, I was in Berlevaag. On the 28th or 29th of December, I went from Vardoe to Palmak, and then back again.
Q. All of these towns which [w typed over illegible] you have named are in Finnmark?
A. Yes. In May, 1946, I went by air from Vardoe to Tromsoe. That [t typed over illegible] is on the other side of Finnmark, in the West.
Q. Were these trips which you have just spoken about of an official nature?
A. A part of them, yes. Some of them were official. The trip to Tromsoe was of a private nature.
Q. Apart from the private trip, what was your official task?
A. My trip to Berlevaag, had to do with the traitors, - the trial against the people who had committed high treason,
Q. Witness, you do not have to tell us the reasons for every single one of your official trips. Generally speaking, in which capacity did you travel there, and what was on the whole, your task?
A. I travelled in the capacity of a police official. They were only investigations on those kinds of tasks.
Q. Did you have contact with the inhabitants during these trips?
Q. Witness, during the evacuation did you ever receive a reason from the German occupation authority why the evacuation took place?
A. Yes. During the conversations which I mentioned before with the German officer in Finnkonckeila, I heard about this. This was that the population had to be taken from the sphere of the threatening Soviet Russian domination of terror. When I was in the house of my mother-in
26 Aug-M-JP-10-2-Stewart (Int. Evand Scharf)
Court V Case VII
law in order to get the clothes which [wh typed over illegible] I spoke about before, I met a German soldier who was forcing some drawers, etc. I do not
know what he was looking for. He saw that I took various pieces of clothing, and tried to put them into my rucksack, and he said to me, Leave it; you dont
need anything." He said, "If you should succeed in getting away into the mountains, you are going to be shot anyway, and if the Russians come, then
you will be used for forced labor in Siberia, and you dont need any of these things there."
Q. Witness, did the Russians really penetrate into this territory about which we are just speaking?
Q. Did the population with whom you spoke ever tell you what they thought about the reason for the evacuation?
A. The Norwegian population regarded the destructions which had taken place, and the evacuation as pure vandalism.
MR. RAPP: I have no further questions at this time, your Honor.
26 Aug-M-JB-11-1-Urmey (Int. Evand)
Court V Case
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Dr. Fritsch for the defendant Rendulic. Witness, you were a police official for four years during the occupation?
Q. Well, then, you worked for the Quisling government?
Q. You were a police official?
Q. And who constituted the government then?
A. From 1941, it was the Quisling government.
Q. And to whom were you subordinate as a police official?
A. During the period of the Quisling government, we police officials followed the orders and paroles which were given us by our lawful government in London.
Q. But the exiled government in London couldn't give any individual orders, any detailed orders.
A. We had our system of information and we were so informed that we knew and could follow what was decided in London.
Q. And what kind of information was this? What system of information?
A. We listened to the Norwegian radio from London. I would like to point out that the Quisling government had their own police, state police, and a party police.
Q. Well, who paid you then?
A. I got my salary from the Norwegian state.
Q. And this Norwegian state was represented lay the Norwegian Minister of the Interior for you?
A. I would like to point out to the defense counsel that although we had a Quisling government in the country, the Norwegian resistance [st typed over illegible]
movement was in no way dead, only a small percentage of the population
26 Aug-M-JP-11-2-Urmey (Int. Evand)
Court [t typed over illegible] V Case VII
supported the Quisling government and the government was supported by bayonets.
Q. Witness, when the Quisling government came into power, did you have to swear an oath of loyalty to them?
A. No, we didn't have to. If anyone had been asked to swear this kind of oath, I would have left my job.
Q. Witness, I am now speaking about the period November 1944. According to your description, a telephone conversation from Finnkonckeila told you for the first time of the imminent evacuation. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. And previously, no announcements of any kind had been issued about an evacuation?
A. During the middle of October, I went on my bicycle from Vardoe to Smallfjord and then I went on by boat to Skajanes. There I saw an [sic] heard that the Norwegian
members of the Nazi Party had received information that they were to be evacuated. They were told that they were to be brought to safety. About that
time, I didn't discover anything about the fact that the Norwegian population was to be evacuated. This information only referred to the Nazi population, and
I thought it probably that the Germans would tell their followers in Norway that they were to be brought to safety,
Q. Witness, when did you see for the first time a poster, an announcement which urged the population to evacuate?
A. As I traveled through Tana, those proclamations were nowhere to be seen. As I have already said, in Skajanes there was no land communication. Everything there took place by sea, by sea routes. The only telephonic communication which we had in Skajanes was with Finnkonckeila and in this part of the country no posters were put up.
Q. And did you see later on posters of this kind?
A. Yes, I saw then when I came back to Vardoe in connection with the work which I had to do as a police official.
26 Aug M-JP-11-3-Urmey (Int. Evand)
Court V Case VII
Q. Witness, did you go in an official capacity to Skajanes?
Q. As a police official?
Q. Well, what did you have to do there? Just one quite short answer.
A. Since the town of Vardoe was far from the main routes, it was decided that a part of the police chamber there was to be transferred and this part was to be taken to Skajanes.
Q. Who issued this order?
A. The order was given to me by my chief, the police director in Vardoe.
Q. And from whom did the director of police receive this order?
A. I cant say because I naturally do not have the right to ask my superiors from whom they received their orders.
Q. To whom was this police director subordinate?
A. The Department of Justice was superior to the Police director.
Q. And this Department of Justice belonged to the Quisling government?
A. Yes, but a very large percentage - the greatest percentage in the Department of Justice did not belong to the Quisling Government,
Q. Not to the Quisling government? Or the Quisling party?
A. Only the ministers were in the government.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: The Tribunal will recess until one-thirty this afternoon.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
26 Aug 47-A-MB-13-1-Urmey (Int. Jacobsohn)
No. V, Case No. 7
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats. The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. RAPP: Your Honors will see before them a piece of paper which I have passed out during the recess to be marked for identifica[-]tion 523-A. I just wanted to
get this in in time so that by tomorrow noon when the 24-hour period elapses we can tie this particular certificate up to Norway Document 6--523-A. I furnished
copies of this to the interpreters, the court reporters, the assistant Secretary General, the German defense counsel.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued)
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q Your Honor, may I continue the cross examination? Witness, before the noon recess, you told me that the middle of October, 1944, you had been transferred to Skajanes by the then Norwegian government.
Q Were you then again in service as a police sergeant major?
A. The police office was to be transferred. However, it did not get there because the boat which was to take these people there was seized by the Germans and requisitioned. That was in Batsfjord.
Q What did you do in Skajanes?
A. I was waiting there for our office. The telephone communications were cut and for that reason I had no information. I was waiting for the boat to arrive.
Q Witness, who was your highest superior in Norway?
A The police was administered by the Justice Department and thus the Justice Department was the highest authority.
Q And this Justice Department was part of the Norwegian Government of that day?
A It is like this: every minister took care of the duties of his department.
26 Aug 47-A-MB-13-2-Urmey (Int. Jacobsohn)
Court No.V, Case No. 7.
Q He belonged to the government, didnt he?
A Yes, he did.
Q Witness, you told me that you did not have to swear an oath of loyalty to the Norwegian government of that time. Is that correct?
A Yes, it is.
Q Only you yourself didn't swear an oath of loyalty or did none of the police officials swear an oath of loyalty?
A The whole of the police. Those who were Norwegians among the police officials did not swear an oath of loyalty.
Q But then you carried out your duties on the directives of that government?
A I would like to point out that the adherents of Quisling government in Norway were not more than two per cent of the population[o typed over
illegible]. In all departments of the government, people who were bitter enemies of the Quisling government had their place. Even within the Quisling
party, the resistance movement had its people who informed the resistance movement about what was happening within the Quisling party. It might be said
that the whole country, almost the entire population was not only opposed to the Quisling government but was fighting against the government.
Q Excuse me, that is sufficient for my purposes. Witness, you then went to the Norwegian place which I can hardly pronounce-Finnkonckeila, The German
soldiers who landed there--you saw them, did you?
A Yes, I did.
Q Were these marines or were they ordinary troops?
A Ordinary army troops as well as marines.
Q How did you recognize the difference?
A After the Germans had been in the country for four years, it was natural that one knew the difference between a marine and an ordinary army soldier.
Q You talked with the leader of that unit?
26 Aug 47-A-MB-13-3-Urmey (int. Jacobsohn)
Court No. V, Case No. 7.
Q That was a Lieutenant?
Q A Lieutenant of the Marines?
A That was an army lieutenant.
Q Do you know, witness, when in this place the inhabitants were first asked to evacuate it?
A That was on the previous day, on the 30th of October, 1944.
Q And in what manner?
A This place has no road communications; for that reason, a ship came which landed those soldiers. These soldiers went through the village and told the population what was to happen.
Q Witness, you had said in this children's home which was situated in this village had been transferred from Verdoe. Is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
26 Aug 47-A-FjC-14-1-Maloy (Jacobsohn)
Court V Case VII
Q For what reason was the children's home transferred from Vardoe to this place?
A As I said before Vardoe is situated far to the east, and for that reason there was a great danger that war operations would take place in that region. Apart from that, the building in which the children's home was housed, had been taken over by the Germans.
First of all the children's home was transferred to Kongsfjord.
Q Just a moment, did Russian air attacks take place on Vardoe?
A Yes, indeed.
Q Was not that the reason why this children's home was transferred from Vardoe to a place which was in less danger?
A I assume that both reasons applied.
Q Was Vardoe greatly damaged by these air attacks?
A Yes, indeed.
Q What was the opproximate [sic] percentage of the town which was destroyed by these air attacks?
A About 45 per cent, of the houses.
Q Were destroyed by these air attacks?
Q Witness, you then brought these children to Skjanes on the 1st November 1944?
Q You said it was very difficult to go across the mountains-these children were dressed in a very insufficient manner, is that correct?
Q. Why did you not put these children into the ships in order to send them to safety in that way?
A Since numerous attacks had taken place at sea by the Russians and other allies, it was deemed very dangerous to evacuate the children by sea.
Q Did this evacuation of the children to Skjanes take place in agreement with the German evacuation commission?
26 Aug 47-A-FjC-14-2-Maloy (Jacobsohn)
Court V Case VII
A No. That was out of the question.
Q How did the German evacuation authorities want to transport these children?
A They were transported in such a landing craft, it was an iron boat with a roof and nothing else.
Q And this kind of a transport you found more dangerous than the transport with insufficient clothing across the mountains?
A From Finnkonjkeila to Skjanes the distance is not greater than about 30 kilometers, but to Tromsoe, and that was the first point where the German landing craft would stop, it would have been 650 kilometers, across wide stretches of sea infested with mines, and so forth.
Q Witness, how big is Finnkonjkaila?
A About a 100 people lived in Finnkonjkeila.
Q 100. Can a landing craft travel over a distance of 650 kilometers non-stop?
A Mr. Defense Counsel must not assume that I know the efficiency and capacity of the German war vessels.
Q You had stated that this was a small iron boat which would only touch land in Tromsoe, that is after a voyage of 650 kilometers, do you know that?
A It was not a small boat, it was one of those flat boats with a flat bottom the English called landing crafts.
Q It was a large boat then?
A What do you mean by a large one and what do you mean by a small one in talking about ships?
Q Just because of that I would like to be told the size of this boat by the witness who has after all seen this boat.
A For the length and width to be given in meters?
Q Yes, please.
A About 20 meters long and five to six wide.
Q When you then returned to Skjanes did you again take up your duties as a police officer?
26 Aug 47-A-FjC-14-3-Maloy (Jacobsohn)
Court V Case VII
A I said previously that in Skjanes I was waiting for my office which had been delayed in Batsfjord, and as long as my office and the officials had not arrived in full strength, I could not take up my duties with this office.
Q You then had lots of children in the school in Skjames [sic], how many children were there and how old were they?
A I have already said that there were 23 children, and the age categories from one to 15 years.
Q Did women look after these children?
A Yes, indeed.
Q How many women were available for this purpose?
A I have already told you four.
Q You then said that these small children especially were brought half clothed, half dressed on the boat; why did not these women see to it that these children were properly dressed?
A I have already said that the directores [sic] of the children's home came to me and asked me to intervene. The children were taken on board the ship while I was looking on myself.
Q This does not constitute an answer to my question.
A How could the women dress the children when the Germans tore these children from their beds and conducted them to the boats.
Q Excuse me witness, I put a question to you, why did the women not dress these children. You answered by putting a question to me.
A. It was like this. The directores [sic] of this children's home had come to me and she hoped and expected that I would be successful seeing that the children were not taken and if the children were not taken away there would have been no necessity for dressing them.
26 Aug-A-JP-15-1-Maloy (Int.Jacobson/Scharf)
Court V Case VII
Q. How long did you negotiate with the German officer about this question?
A. About 5 minutes.
Q. And he still refused to leave the children in the home?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Was the director of this children's home present at this dis-cussion?
A. She was in the house while I was talking to the officer outside the house on the stairs.
Q. Could she not in the meantime see to it that the children were dressed?
A. The director of the children's home did not believe the Germans would be brutal enough to take the children in this manner.
Q. Had it been said that the children were to be evacuated on a ship?
A. Yes, that was said.
Q. Now, what was the brutality in this procedure?
A. First of all it was brutal that the children should be subjected to such a voyage. It was so to speak an iron box, the boat was nothing else but an iron box with a motor at the end. Apart from that not enough time was left to prepare the children in a proper manner for a voyage of this kind.
Q. How much time was at their dispositional?
A. Not much more than 5 minutes.
Q. You mean to say that from the time the German soldiers announced Skjanes was to be evacuated until the time the children had to board the ship?
A. The children's home or the population generally?
Q. The population generally?
A. One hour.
Q. How large is Skjanes, as regards population, I mean?
26 Aug-JP-15-2-Maloy (Int. Jacobson/ Scharf)
Court V Case VII
A. About 150 inhabitants.
Q. Witness, you had received permission for yourself to return home again and to look after the evacuation of your family, is that correct?
A. Yes that is correct.
Q. Have I understood you correctly that the Germans had surrounded the whole village by sentries?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. In spite of that you did not board the ship?
Q. Rather you went into the mountains?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Were you not observed by the soldiers who surrounded the village?
A. No. The village of Skjanes is so very extended there is one house here and one house quite a distance away.
Q. One can't really speak of surrounding this village then?
A. German soldiers were posted around the village. To say “surrounded” would not be the proper expression.
Q. Have I understood the number correctly of those who entered the mountains from Skjanes, did you say there were 130?
A. I said in the camp in which I was we were 130 People.
Q. Were all of these people from Skjanes?
A. All of these people came from Skjanes.
Q. Witness, how many people were evacuated from Skjanes?
Q. And all the others could save themselves from being evacuated by fleeing?
A. Yes, I have already said that.
Q. How many German soldiers had landed in order to carry out the evacuation?
A. I don't know whether I saw all of them the way I was, however,
26 Aug-A-JP-15-3-Maloy (Int. Jacobson/Scharf)
Court V Case VII
I want to say there must have been 15 to 20 men.
Q. Do you want to say these 15 or 20 people were not in a position to supervise the place that was evacuated?
A. It is evident that the population of the village knew the conditions of the terrain in the village and in the surrounding country better than the soldiers who were posted there, and for that reason they were successful in gaining the mountains in spite of the soldiers.
Q. Where was the evacuation intended to take the people from Skjanes?
A. We did not get any information on this.
Q. Was this transport boat which was to evacuate the population from Skjanes [k typed over j], was that also a fairly large boat, that is to say a ship?
A. It was the same landing craft of which I have already spoken.
Q. The same boat which evacuated the population in that other place?
A. The same boat which evacuated the children from Skjanes traveled to Finnkonjkeila on the next day, and that is as far as I heard, and took the population on board as there were only very few who had come to the boat.
26 Aug-A-JP-16-1-Perrin (Int. Jacobson)
Court V Case VII
Q. You said the evacuation of FInnkonjkeilia. took place before that of Skjanes, is that not correct?
A. No, it took place afterwards.
Q. Witness, you were in Finnkonjkeila, that place was evacuated, there you escaped the evacuation, and you also took the children with you, and then you went to Skjanes?
A. My family was in Skjanes. I was asked from Finnkonjkeila to go there and help and bring these children to safety. I therefore went from Skjanes to Finnkonjkeila. My family, therefore, was not in Finnkonjkeila.
Q. That is correct? Witness, when you were in Finnkonjkeila, there were German troops there, as you said, in order to evacuate that place?
A. German troops were there in order to burn down the place.
Q. And leave the population there?
A. The population was to stay there. It was said that a ship would come and will fetch you.
Q. And this ship, witness, when you went to Skjanes had not arrived in Finnkonjkeila?
A. No, it had not arrived at Finnkonjkeila yet. The ship which actually came had been in Skjanes, had taken the children aboard, and touched Finnkonjkeila on the way to the south on the way across the fjord.
Q. Witness, on my question when I asked if the ship was to go to Skjanes, you answered me you did not know, is that correct?
A. We got the information that the population was to be sent to the south.
Q. No place was named?
A. No place was named?
Q. But you knew that the same ship which had taken the children was going to Tronsoe [sic], that is what you said previously?
A. I did not know that the ship was bound for Tromsoe. I heard
26 Aug-A-JP-16-2-Perrin (Int. Jacobson)
Court V Case VII
later when communications were re-established that the ship had gone to Tromsoe.
Q. Witness, as reason for your wanting to take the children across the mountains, you told me this was that Skjanes was only 30 kilometers while you had known that the ship was bound for Tromsoe, that would have been 650 kilometers; and now you are telling that you learned only later that the ship was to go to Tromsoe?
A. I named Tromsoe because I know now where the ship was bound for. That is the reason I named this distance.
Q. At that time you did not know that the ship was bound for Tromsoe?
A. No. I only knew that the children were to be sent south.
Q. Previously, you told me on my question of why you went by foot over the mountains, you told me that you had escaped evacuation because the ship was bound for Tromsoe. That is previously, you tole [sic] me that you knew at that time that the ship was bound for Tromsoe. Why is there dis-crepancy in that, witness?
A. When the Germans came and said the ship was bound for the south, when we in Norway talk of the south we mean everything south of Trondehjem. If we talk of northern Norway, we talk of everything situated north of Tromsoe.
Q. Witness, thank you, we can leave this subject now, One question, Did you talk about the evidence during the noon recess with any of your fellow countrymen?
Q. Witness, as you said, you then went in a Norwegian motorboat from Skjanes to Vardoe, is that correct?
Q. Witness, may I first of all ask you, do you speak German?
A. Very little. I understand a little bit of German.
Q. Was this Motorboat belonging to the Norwegian government of that
26 Aug-A-JP-16-3-Perrin (Int. Jacobson)
Court V Case VII
A. This was a fishing vessel which belonged to a fisher in the Batsfjord.
Q. Witness, when you returned to Vardoe, did you take up your duties?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. You said you had made investigations regarding those people who had escaped to the mountains?
Q. And on whose orders did you do that?
A. On the order of my chief, the police director.
Q. That is on the official orders of the then Norwegian government?
A. What does the defense counsel understand by "Norwegian Government" in this case?
Q. The superiors of your police director.
A. The Norwegian government was in London. The Quisling government was never recognized as a Norwegian government.
Q. Witness, I please ask you not to evade this Question. I have asked you on whose orders your director of police was acting?
A. Norwegian members of the Norwegian government in England had come back to Norway as well as Norwegian soldiers, and they started work right away.
Q. When was that, witness?
A. I returned to Vardoe on the 19th November, and there the Norwegian agencies had already started work who had come over from England.
Q. Witness, on the basis of these investigations you made, what did you find out about those people who had escaped into the mountains? Did many people die?
A. The people who had escaped from the burned down villages to the mountains had made great efforts to build houses. Winter should have started
26 Aug-A- JP-16-4-Perrin (Int.Jacobson)
Court V Case VII
at that time already, but in that year autumn was very long.
Q. My question was to this point. What did you find out about the fate of those people, that is to say, whether many of these people did perish.
26 Aug-A-JP-17-1-Perrin (Int. Jacobson)
Court V Case VII
A. I know of some cases In which people perished because of the strenuous conditions under which they had to live.
Q. Their number can't have been very considerable, as I take it, from you answer.
A. This is due only to the very mild weather. Normally, winter starts in this part of Norway on the first of October, that is in the first week of October; in this year, it started only at the end of November.
Q. Witness, this does not yet answer the question. I asked you for the number of victims.
A. In my district that is in the district of Skjanes, I learned that one elderly man in (spelling) L-a-n-g-f-j-o-r-d-n-e-S, had died while fleeing.
Q. Otherwise, you did not hear of any case [typed over another word] of death?
A. And in Skjanes a woman died of heartttrouble because of her exertions. That was after I had left Skjanes.
Q. Was that an old woman?
A. She was between 40 and 50.
Q. Witness, for about three or four years you served in an official capacity under the German occupation?
A. During the German occupation, under the German occupation powers, yes.
Q. Did you have any contact with the German military during that time?
A. In Finnmark the number of soldiers was many times larger than the number of the civilian population. In the course of time, Germans had more and more authority in regard to the many things that were happening there, and it was quite inevitable that the civilian population came in to contact with the German soldiers.
Q. That is what I implied in my question. I only wanted to know from you whether you had any closer contact with the German soldiers?
26 Aug-A-JP-17-2-Perrin (Int. Jacobson)
Court V Case VII
I ask you to answer this question with only yes or no.
Q. What were your personal experiences with the German Army troops there?
A. I did not like them.
Q. Excuse me, I believe that. I asked you what were your experiences that is, how did the German soldiers behave toward you?
A. They behaved as the Germans have always behaved themselves towards the population [o typed over u, pop] of an occupied territory. They look upon themselves as the Master Race.
Q. I don't believe that we can go any further into this problem in this manner. I want to hear from you whether you personally have had bad experiences with these German soldiers apart from the evacuation?
A. As police official during the time of the German occupation, I could observe how the Germans took every opportunity to look down upon one as something more or less inferior.
Q. That is a matter of emotion. I have asked you whether something unpleasant was done to you or to your family?
A. A German officer wanted to have me punished because during a stormy night during which one could hardly see anything, I had passed him without greeting him or saluting him.
Q. That is the only unpleasant experience you had with the Germans?
A. During all this time all we Norwegians were under tremendous pressure because of the German occupation.
Q. Witness, I certainly understand you. Nobody likes to have the enemy in his country, but this is not the matter at issue here. I'd like to ask you to answer my question now. Did you yourself suffer from unjust treatment from the part of German soldiers?
A. What do you mean by “unpleasantness”?
Q. I would then like you to answer the following question. What have you to complain of regarding the treatment of yourself or your family on the part of the German occupation forces?
Court V Case VII
26 Aug 47 A-18-1-GG-Primeau (Jacobsohn)
Have you nothing to say in this matter, witness?
A. I cannot at the moment remember anything except for this, that we were insulted. The Norwegian official authorities were not recognised.
Q. You said you were continuously insulted. Surely, you must recallo [sic] one of these many insults.
Witness, may I put another question to you, so that we don't spend too much time on this? Did the German armed forces provide food for the population?
A. As far as I know, the Norwegian population was not provisioned by the German armed forces.
Q. The Norwegian population did also live on foodstuffs which were imported, not only on food which was raised in the country?
A. We imported a certain amount of foodstuffs.
Q. These imports would have to go through the German occupation channels at that time?
A. I personally don't know anything about that.
Dr. FRITSCH: For the time being I have no further questions to the witness in cross examination.
By MR. RAPP:
Q Witness, were you a Member of the Illegal Norwegian movement?
A Yes, indeed. I worked in the Illegal Movement.
Q Were you ever aware of the fact that under German law this Movement was illegal?
A Yes, I was, indeed, aware of that.
Q Did you look upon this work in the Illegal movement as a duty?
A Yes, I did.
Q You told us that there were more Germen troops in that neighbor-hood than there were Norwegian inhabitants. Is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct
Q Was it very dangerous for you to serve your royal government _____________?
Court V Case VII
26 Aug 47 A-18-2-GG-Primeau (Jacobsohn)
A Yes, indeed, there was always the danger that the Germans or that the members of the Quisling Party would get news of it.
Q And what was the punishment publicly known which the military government had issued for such membership?
A In the lightest cases, it was penitentiary or forced labor and usually death sentences.
Q Witness, you told us that about 2% of the Norwegian population were adherents of Quisling. Is that correct?
A Yes, it is.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I just wonder what all this has to do with the evacuation of Norway.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, I submit that this particular phase was brought up by defense in their cross examination, a matter which we did not intend to include. It was put in there for the purpose of discrediting the witness and I am trying to establish the fact that the witness's conduct up there was not of that nature.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Well, no one objected and we sat here and listened patiently and I don't think that warrants going back into it again. These examinations never will end if every new point that is brought up provokes another long new line of testimony.
Mr. RAPP: Very well then, your Honor; if in the future such points are brought up by the defense, we shall object,
Q Witness, could you tell us the climatic conditions prevailing at the tine of the evacuation?
A The climatic conditions were unusually favorable in this fall.
Mr. RAPP: Shall I repeat this question in German to go back to the German language?
Q What were the climatic conditions in Norway or, rather, in Finnmark during the time of the evacuation?
A The climatic conditions at that time were very unusually favorable for this time of the year.
Court V Case VII
26 Aug 47 A-18-3-GG-Primeau (Jacobsohn)
Q Witness, can you describe to us what conditions were like at sea during the time when you were in Finnkojnkeila?
A The weather was good.
Q Witness, if talking of the sea, I believe at least one does not talk in terms of good or bad. Could you describe just what the sea was like?
A The sea was quiet and calm.
Q Witness, was the coast up there infested with mines?
A Yes, indeed. There were mines all over the place.
Q I am not not talking of land. I am talking of the water. I am talking of sea mines.
A Yes, these were sea mines.
Q How did you know that?
A I learned that in Vardoe because if a Norwegian ship confiscated by the Germans was ordered to go some place the crew of this ship learned what course it had to take in order to evade the Mines.
Q Who laid those mines?
A The Germans laid those mines. On the other hand, German as well as British airplanes had dropped mines.
Q Did you ever see, witness, whether German ships of any kind of ship—I am talking now of those which either entered the coastal area or left the coastal area—were any of those ships destroyed by mines?
A Yes, I did see that.
Q Was this fact known to you when the problem of the children's home was under discussion, the fact that German ships had hit enemy mines in the coastal areas—was that fact known to you when the problem of the evacuation of the children's home was under discussion?
A It was generally known among the coastal population that Russian and British airplanes had dropped mines. The population got to know that in the following manner—that certain routes in the sea wore blocked until German mine sweepers had swept those lanes.
Court V Case VII
26 Aug 47 A-18-4-GG- Primeau (Jacobsohn)
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We will take our afternoon recess at this time.
(a recess was taken)
26 Aug 47-A-MB-20-l-Stewart (Int. Evand & Scharf)
Court No. V. Case No.7.
BY MR. RAPP:.
Q Before the recess we talked about mines which were laid along the coast by the Allies, and that the population knew about that be-cause occasionally German boats exploded. Witness, was this fact one of the reasons why you tried to prevent the children from [f typed over b] being evacuated by sea?
A Yes, that was one of the reasons.
Q Witness, you have stated here that you personally had no bad experiences with the Germans, that you can remember. Is that correct?
A No, I cannot remember any incidents.
Q Of a personal nature?
A Yes, of a personal nature.
Q Then you merely expressed your feelings?
A Yes, only my feelings.
Q Witness, can you tell us quite briefly, apart from the examples which you have already stated in your main testimony of bad experiences which you yourself observed or which were reported directly to you in your capacity as political chief, bad experiences of your countrymen up there with the Germans.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: I do not see any necessity for going through that again unless it is something in addition to what he has testified to.
MR. RAPP: That is what I wanted to test whether or not he had additional testimony to give to that particular issue, your Honor.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: I think you should limit it to anything additional then.
A. Yes. After Russia and Germany were at war, the Germans issued an order, according to which all people over 15 years of age had to have an identification card, and this identification card had always to be carried by the people. The Germans often controlled the people to see whether they had these papers, and while they pretended to carry out these controls, there were sometimes violations on the part of the Germans.
26 Aug 47-A-MB-20-2-Stewart (Int. Evand & Scharf)
Court No. V, Case No. 7.
Q Witness, we are merely interested that you tell us, without beating about the bush too much, and quite briefly, what kind of viola-tions these were, whether you were a witness of them, or whether they were reported to you in your official capacity. That is all that we are interested in.
A In one of these cases an old woman was exposed to one of these identification card controls, and when she did not produce the paper quickly enough, a pistol was pushed into her back, she was taken across the street and she was threatened with being placed before the Field Gendarmerie.
Q How do you know this?
A This was reported to me in my capacity as a policeman.
In one case a young Norwegian was hit down on the street by two Germans. The young man wanted to meet a Norwegian girl, and the Germans also wanted to go with this girl, and therefore they hit him down. That was reported to me.
Q Witness, in the first case which you told us about was it reported to you who the people were?
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: Just a moment. The indictment in this case charges that the defendant Redulic was charged with a crime committed during the evacuation. It seems to me that this evidence of what happened during the occupation is outside of the scope of the indictment.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, the occupation in this particular phase was part of the evacuation, i.e. the occupation was de facto still existing. I believe this would fit into the evidence we are submitting. In other words, the occupation did not cease the minute the evacuation started.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: If I remember correctly, the indictment charges the burning of the homes and destruction of property as not being a militarily necessity. There is nothing said about injuring of [sic] killing any of the population or anything of that kind. It seems to me that we are getting outside of the scope of this particular area.
MR. RAPP: Very well, your Honor, then I have no further questions for the witness.
26 Aug-A-MJ-21-1-Stewart (Scharf)
Court 5, Case 7
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: Is there anything further?
BY DR. FRITSCH, for Rendulic:
Your Honor, I only have one question inconnection [sic] with the re-direct examination.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, we submit that we have been rather liberal in permitting defense counsel to have, so to speak, the last word every time the prosecution produces a witness. Heretofore we feel that this prosecution introducing a witness, thatafter [sic] the corss-examination [sic], the testimony ought to be concluded. Now the defense is trying to re-direct or re-cross examine the witness at this time.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: I think where the proecution brings in new evidence, they are entitled to bring in cross-examination. If it is rebuttal, they are not. We will permit him to ask the question,
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, I only have one question which arises from the re-examination of the prosecution.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Witness, you were askd [sic] in the re-direct examination [t and i typed in same space] whether the military government, that is the German military government in Norway had issud [sic] heavy penalties.
My question is was there a German Military Government in Norway?
A. There was a Reich Commissar, Torboven.
Q. Do I understand you correctly that this Reich Commissioner was a military authority?
A. I do not know how far his authority went, and of what kind it was.
Q. Was the office of the Reich Commissioner a military agency, witness?
A. I do not know what [w and h typed in same space] relation he had to the military.
26 Aug-A-MJ-21-2-Stewart (Scharf)
Court 5, Case 7
Q. Witness, did you ever hear that Norwegians came before a military court?
Q. Do you now mean a court of the Reich Commisioner or a Army court?
A. This was a so-called court martial.
Q. And who was on this court tribunal?
A. I was never in these courts.
DR. FRITSCH: Thank you very much, I have notfurther [sic] questions.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Are there further questions by the defense? The Tribunal has none.
Is there any reason why this witness should not be excused permanently?
The witness will be excused.